Ján Čarnogurský

I have to admit that a bit later, general Lorinc told me that I was imprisoned mainly because one of my conversations was listened in. Then, in spring of 1989, I talked to Fero Mikloško, Václav Malý, who is at present a bishop in Prague, and Václav Benda. We spoke about the process of beatification of saint Agnes or beatified Agnes, which was decided in advance, what actually meant that she was going to be canonized and, of course, the church ceremony was going to be organized. And as it wasn’t supposed, as nobody would came upon an idea that the regime would allow any trips to Vatican on this occasion, we presumed that it would be held in St. Vitus Cathedral in Prague. Then, I should have said that I and Fero would bring at least ten thousand Slovaks there, you know, we felt like heroes, and that we would do a jumble there in Hradčany in Prague. We heard that it really frightened the members of the State Security, because it happened shortly after the Candle Manifestation and there were two places in Prague, which were taken as taboo, the neighbourhood of the building, where the Central Committee of the Communist Party had a seat, and Hradčany as the president’s residence. Right there, in Hradčany, we wanted to do something like that, and, I think, that especially after the Candle Manifestation and petition from the Catholics, the State Security wasn’t able to identify believers. They didn’t know who they were, what they were capable of doing, or what their way of thinking was. That’s why they were frightened. And that’s also why they arrested me; they simply wanted to prevent the above mentioned events.”

“I want to say something about November 1989. I learnt about it a couple of days later. It is necessary to say that I was arrested on August 15, 1989; however, it was about August 20, or August 25, 1989, when the non-communist government lead by Mazowiecki was established in Poland. A few days later, eastern Germans were released from Hungary to escape through Hungary to Austria, so this way Hungary opened the frontiers to the West. Moreover, on November 9, 1989, the Berlin Wall between Eastern and Western Germany fell. Only some time before that, busses crowded with Eastern Germans were still being driven to prison, and these people often attempted to escape to Hungary or to Austria through Czechoslovakia. Those who were caught at frontiers were quickly sent back to the GDR; however, usually they went from prison to prison, they also were in Bratislava, where I was imprisoned, and usually spent a night there. It all showed that the system was about to collapse. Later, on about November 19 or 20, the demonstrations on SNP Square in Bratislava started and when we opened the window in our cell, we could hear people chanting there. My advocate usually told me what was going on there. Well, thus I knew that something had happened. My trial was held on November 23, when I was acquitted, but as the prosecutor lodged an appeal against my release from custody, I had to stay in prison. However, two days later, on November 25, I was granted an amnesty from President Husák and I was released from prison.”

“At first it is necessary to say that the Communist Party really ceased to exist. It wasn’t prohibited; its existence came to an end by democratic means, what meant that our society didn’t want it here. We shouldn’t forget about it. Well, when it was over, the communists spread out, they became active in other political parties, except for the Christian Democratic Movement, as they knew that it was the end of communism. That’s the way things are in history, and the result was that the further development wasn’t very sharp. In these terms I don’t talk just about economy, but mainly about domestic policy, culture and the like, it wasn’t as sharp as I had imagined or wished. However, we couldn’t have expected that former communists, as there were about 400,000 of them in Slovakia, would be in sackcloth and ashes telling us, ‘All right, we won’t be socially engaged anymore.’ We really couldn’t expect it. And they joined other parties, they adjusted to market terms. They were often very apt people, because it is a fact that many people joined the party just because they wanted to develop their potential in the communist era. That’s how things are.”

“Since the mid 1980s, the Charter 77 used to organise meetings of various opposition groups - the Greens and the Czech Children, or what their real name was, and, of course, some people from Slovakia, not just the Charter members as there were only a few, but mainly the Christian opposition [was present at the meetings]. So I used to go there from Bratislava and then, of course, I informed all the others. However, the State Security caught us a few times and even detained us at the police station. Well, it was going on this way for some time, when the State Security ran of their patience. They followed me to housewares and searched my house, so then, in 1985, I was actually forced to leave the housewares. Later, I worked for some time in an affiliated plant of Joint Agricultural Cooperative (JRD), but I was forced to leave it as well and from January 1, 1987, I became unemployed.”

“I experienced this around the year 1988, when the police caught us at one of the meetings of the opposition staff in Prague. We were isolated from each other and taken to various police stations in Prague, and then, I was put into a car and told that they would drive me to Bratislava. However, they drove me about thirty miles from Prague and then turned off the road. They stopped in a grove and ordered me to get out of the car. I thought it could end up really badly for me, but fortunately nothing happened. They got out of the car, waited silently for a while and then got back into the car and went away. They simply left me there. This was what I experienced then. When I was in prison, I already felt their respect or uncertainty at least, for example, I refused to cooperate with investigators, I mean I refused to give evidence and the like. When they wanted to take my fingerprints, I clenched my fists and said I wouldn’t open them, because I wouldn’t cooperate and they didn’t dare to open my fists by violence, what they actually could have done, if they had wanted.”

“Coping with communism, let’s say, in the field of justice, which I know the best, of course, the judges remained the same, and we couldn’t replace them. If there had been new judges, if we had said that we wanted to replace all the old judges with the new ones, then those new judges would have been even worse than the previous, because they would have been worse lawyers. And, in the field of justice, 90 % of activities belong to the sphere of law, to knowledge of law and the remaining 10 % is politically or ideologically motivated. Later, when I was the minister of justice, I had meetings with young judges or judges to be, it was about the year 2000, actually ten years after the Velvet Revolution, and those people had nothing to do with communism. They were young people who graduated at faculties of law in the mid 1990s. However, the discussion with them was only about whether they would get a flat and when, what their salaries would be, whether they could work at court they had chosen or not and the like. I have to admit I was really disappointed. So having certain illusions about radical coping with communism, I really doubt there could be some sweeping changes.”

“Coincidentally, I was satisfied with it, because at that time I had already got in touch with Anton Hlinka from the Voice of America and from the Radio Free Europe. He sent his Munich phone number to Fero Mikloško and to me and asked us to call him immediately, when something interesting would happen mainly in the field of dissident activities, especially Christian ones, in Slovakia. And we really phoned him. At first we used my home phone as I had one for some time, but then, my phone was disconnected, and we used the phone boxes on the street. Later, he broadcasted it. He compiled the information into a radio programme and aired it in his broadcasts, which were very popular with people. This way the information about what happened in one town or at some court and the like, spread throughout the whole republic.”

“Well, when I was released from prison, it was approximately at six or seven o’clock in the evening, it already got dark and the money I had was just enough for a tram ticket, so I got on and went home to Dúbravka. At that time the houses were already covered with various inscriptions such as: ‘We call for free elections’. When they had arrested me three months before, the demand for free elections had been one of my accusations and then, when I was released, the demand for free elections was sprayed almost on every second house. It reflected the course of events, how fast that parabola bended. I came home, but, coincidentally, my wife was in Prague. She watched the events then, the fall of regime, and as I was still in prison, she went to Prague to ask the leaders of the Charter 77 and the leaders of demonstrations to request my release, as I was still supposed to be in prison. At least our children were at home and when I came, the TV was on and I watched a talk show, discussion in a studio. One of the participants was Miroslav Kusý, who was arrested along with me in August. It was another sign that times were changing. My wife came home early in the morning. I was released on Saturday and on Sunday I was having a speech on the SNP Square, where demonstrations took place every day.”

„Režim se zhroutil snadno. Je známo, že Václav Havel předem rokoval s ministrem obrany Vackem, aby armáda nezasahovala, a Lidové milice byly zrušeny už předtím. V diskuzích se o listopadu 1989 mluví jako o nějakém hrdinském kousku Čechů a Slováků. Ale uvědomme si, že 17. listopadu už všechny okolní státy nebyly v pravém smyslu komunistické. V Berlíně padla berlínská zeď a bylo jasné, že Německá demokratická republika se zhroutí a Německo se spojí, v Polsku byla nekomunistická vláda Tadeusze Mazowieckého, v Sovětském svazu byl Gorbačov a perestrojka, Maďarsko už pouštělo východní Němce přes své hranice do Rakouska, respektive do západního Německa, a už jen Československo bylo strnulým komunistickým státem. A nikdo v Československu nebyl ochotný za komunismus bojovat.“

„Měli jsme dohromady čtyři domovní prohlídky. Ale protože už můj otec byl objektem zájmu státní bezpečnosti, byl jsem na to svým způsobem zvyklý. A bylo to trošku i dobrodružství. Nejdřív mě měla StB zaškatulkovaného jako aktivistu tajné církve. Ale mě víc zajímala politika než jen specificky tajná církev. Když u někoho z tajné církve dělali domovní prohlídku, přišel za mnou a já mu pomáhal, dokud bylo třeba. A když to skončilo, skončilo to i pro mě a naše cesty se rozešly. Nicméně vedli mě jako aktivistu tajné církve. Jednou jsme měli domovní prohlídku a v bytě jsme měli takový malý betlém, co se dává pod vánoční stromeček, jednu sadu. Našli ho založený někde ve skříni. Jeden estébák hned volal ostatní, fotili to a měli radost, že konečně našli něco, co mě usvědčuje, že jsem tajná církev.“

„Formálně to bylo trochu komplikované. Justice za komunistického Československa nebyla společná, československá. Byla česká a slovenská, s výjimkou Nejvyššího soudu, ale ten byl jen na určité případy. Jako advokát jsem ale mohl obhajovat v celé republice. To znamená, že když se mnou měly problémy české soudy, znojemský a brněnský, neměly jak to formálně dopravit na Slovensko. Jedině přes komunistickou stranu, která jediná překlenovala českou a slovenskou justici. Takže tehdejší předseda Krajského soudu Brno napsal nejdřív na české Ministerstvo spravedlnosti, to potom na sekretariát ÚV KSČ, sekretariát na slovenskou advokacii – a pak to došlo až k nám a byl jsem ze dne na den propuštěn.“

„Chartu jsem nepodepsal, nejdřív z taktických důvodů – kdybych v roce 1977 podepsal, za jeden podpis by mě vyhodili z advokacie a nemohl bych obhajovat a zastupovat všechny ty lidi. A později, když už jsem byl stejně vyhozený z advokacie, už bylo víc opozičních organizací. A zejména na Slovensku bylo těžiště opoziční činnosti vůči komunismu v tajné církvi a samizdatu – a já se angažoval tam. Protože opoziční činnost proti autoritativnímu režimu se musí opírat o nejhlubší a nejpevnější základy dané společnosti. V Čechách to byla liberálně-občanská (ale i křesťanská, ostatně většina chartistů byli také křesťané) linie. Na Slovensku to byla tajná církev. Když jsem chtěl být účinně opoziční, musel jsem pracovat v těchto strukturách a ne v Chartě, která měla těžiště v Čechách. Koneckonců Svíčková manifestace v 1988 byla první masová pouliční demonstrace v normalizovaném Československu a tu jsme zorganizovali právě za pomoci tajné církve. Je třeba vycházet z konkrétních tradic a daností společnosti.“

„Když jsem v rozhovorech s otcem zjišťoval, jak probíhaly události během Slovenského štátu i později, uvědomil jsem si, že chci mít povolání, které by mi umožňovalo bránit se – nebo útočit, jak se to vezme. Zkrátka abych nebyl bezbranný vůči systému, který mě bude obklopovat. A na to je nejlepší právo.“